Is Kinetico worth the $
I just signed on the dotted line to get a Kinetico 2060. Our water is extremely hard 23gpg with 21gpg Iron is 15ppm. Everything I researched said that it was a great brand if we couldn't install it ourselves. We have never had a water softner before so we didn't know what to look for. I did my homework and it seems to last the longest w/o much service needed and it really doesn't use as much salt as the others. What I can't help but wonder is if we paid to much. Close to $3g seems alot. He even said that we got a deal. The price went up $400 more at the beginning of this month but he honored the price he quoted us back in the fall. The price did include installation and tax with the tank full of salt and a sand filter. Is there any Kinetico owners/former owners out there that can help me justify the $ or tell me to back out of the deal. I have 3 days to say no. Thanks Hi, First of all, I am a little confused with your water test results. Do you actually have 15 ppm iron or 1.5 ppm? You should also have you water tested for both solid and dissolved iron as a softener will removed dissolved (ferrous) but not solid (ferric) iron. Where are you located? If you have 23 gpg and 1.5 ppm iron and no other major problems with your water, the 2060 will do its job and you will be very happy with the results. Obviously, you have had time to consider your water needs and hopefully, the sales rep took his/her time to correctly explain the advantages of the equipment. The fact that a twin tank system can provide endless soft water service and that its design leads to fewer service calls, can justify your decision. It also has a very extensive and long warranty. I think you will be very happy with your choice. As far as the 3-day right of recision, each state has its own version. Some states provide more days to the elderly, for example. In most cases the buyer's remorse provision is reserved ONLY for door-to-door salesman who sell on the first day of contact. This law is based on past occurrences of shady salesmen who talk their way into a home and a contract signing and then “force” their products onto the consumer. If you called them, answered a flyer or yellow pages, were contacted by phone or mail, or arranged for a later home demonstration, the right of recision is not valid. A contract signed is a legal document to agree to meet the provisions of that contract by all signatories. Fortunately, all reputable companies will offer and honor this recision despite specific interpretations or common misunderstanding of the law. If you have more questions, please feel free to ask. cbcd4, Andy C. I will disagree in recommending system makes due to our personal affiliations so I'll hold off any additional endorsements besides suggesting potential buyers compare specifications system versus system. A deal can be very subjective due to many variables that may differ from home to home. A good way to see would be to ask for copies of recent 2060's with your installation requirements (pipe size, type, drain, hard line, soft bib, etc) in the area. If everyone else's K2060's that match your installation specs are $400 more than yours, then I'd be more trusting that it's a deal. I believe both you and Andy reside in Ohio so I'm unclear as to where Andy the Kinetico rep arrives at his right of recision is not valid point because Ohio interprets all the situations Andy mentioned (answered a flyer/yellow pages, called by phone, mail, etc.) as falling under the home solicitation act. Your state's can be viewed at http://www.ag.state.oh.us/citizen/pu...a_2003_web.pdf BTW, all states fall under a minimum 3 day cancellation period as it relates to bank financed transactions. You'll see no mention of the first day of contact that Andy mentions. Fortunately, all companies engaging in in home solicitations are REQUIRED to present, review, and leave appropriate (correclty filled out) copies of the notice of cancellation with the buyer. I'd suggest spending the next day getting one or two more quotes. Good luck and hopefully you'll be enjoying soft water shortly. Art cbcd4, Just to clarify, I just noticed you did not have a location listed. I read Andy's OH location and thought it was yours. Feel free to do a google search and you'll find your state's 3 day notice of cancellation law as it relates to the FTC's general guideline. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Art We live in West Michigan. I am not sure what AndyC was talking about with the solid or dissolved iron. But apparently the softner will come with a sand filter, placed before the softner, that will remove the stuff the softner won't do. We will definally need that filter due to that our water also looks like it has alot of clay or some other type of muddy medium brown silt. How we know is that we currently have a whole house filter and need to change it every month. There is 4 people in our house. 2 Adults 1 -5yr old 1 -3 yr old. I replyed to a bulk mailing only after I did some initial research and already thought I wanted a Kinetico. After the salesman left I realized he only left me a copy of the work order or contract paper that I signed. It wasn't a detailed invoice. We also didn't get a copy of the said 10 yr warrantee. I am hoping we will get that at the install. Thanks It sounds like a prefilter feeding the softener, which based on your description is a good idea. Regarding irons, oxidized irons are usually noted by red water when first drawn. Organic-bound irons are often combined with tannins. Both of the previous types require more than a softener to treat. Soluble iron is clear when drawn but soon becomes filled with red rust on standing - depending on the degree of this type, a softener can treat for this. Inorganic iron and iron bacteria require other types of treatment. Rather than throwing up many scenarios, it would be wise to have a more detailed water analysis performed to dertermine wheat treatment is recommended for you. I would be a little concerned if all you rec'd was a copy of the work order. Were TWO copies of the 3 day notice of cancellation included? The warranty certificate is usually included upon installation of the system but a sample copy can be provided by the rep, too. Good luck out there. Art cbcd, We're looking at the same unit. How is yours working out? I'm also looking for a recommendation on a water softener. We have the following water conditions: (PPM) Total Dissolved Solids: 310 Nitrate (as NO3): 1 Chloride (C1): 13 Total Iron (Fe): 1.8 Manganese (Mn): 0.28 We had a Culligan 812 model that has recently gone out. I've had Kinetico by to give a quote. They said that their model can remove Iron and Manganese without a separate iron filter. Can anyone confirm if that is true based on the amounts above? Also, can anyone recommend any other products besides Culligan and Kinetico. I was looking at a product called Twin Iron Eater from Raindance. Any experience with that product. Thanks, Gil We are now enjoying soft water. It is really nice having our sinks, tubs, toilets staying clean for more than 3 days. It is also nice having white clothes. We do have a pre-filter on our unit due to having so much clay silt in our water. We have to change it every 2 months (1 1/2 if we are watering our lawn alot). That costs us $15 per filter but we were paying that much for a filter before w/o softened water. I don't think we would need a pre-filter for Iron or anything if we didn't have somuch a problem with clay silt. I am not regretting our purchase of the Kinetco. Hopefully you still read posts from this site.. cbcd4.. We are now enjoying soft water. cbcd4 - 06-23-06 02:24 PM It's been about 2 years. Are you still completely satisfied with the Kinetico 2060? What has happened since then that has changed your view both positively and negatively? Do you think you should have gone with a Culligan? We are in the process of buying a Kinetico softener but we have not yet signed on the dotted line. You're feedback will help greatly.. Jason It doesn't seem that they have followed up on your request. What were your water test results? What advantages were you told? What system was recommended? Properly sized and placed, you should have excellent water. Andy Christensen, CWS I have narrowed my choices to two candidates: Kinetco MACH Series 2060s - $3495 Culligan Platinum Series - $3400 Both companies water softener works the same way and are certified by the same agencies. Only major difference is below: Remaining Factors: Kinetco: - No monthly service - 2 Mineral Tanks, 1 Brine System - Hydro Powered Culligan - $20 / Month Service Fee - 1 Mineral Tanks, 1 Brine System - Electrical Powered Major Factor: Do I want to pay $20 for service? Aside from adding salt what other kind of services will the water softener require? And how often? AndyC, i would appricate your feedback on this. I'm really curious about the $20 monthly service. Is that something they mandate with new equipment purchase or is it optional ? What are they promising to do each month for $20 ? Originally Posted by wireless33 Both companies water softener works the same way Sorry wireless33 the same way is totally different! The Kinetico has two resin tanks and supplies soft water 24/7. It regenerates each tank exactly as necessary depending on water conditions and water use giving more efficent operation and less wasted water in regeneration and less salt use. The Kinetico is water powered and does not require any electrical connection. Properly installed and setup Kinetico softeners seem to be very reliable and there are rarely posts on self-help forums complaining about them. It's not unusual to see a poster remark that they had the resin replaced in their 15-20 year old Kinetico and expect another 15-20 years of reliable service The Culligan is a single resin tank design and regenerates late at night as it does not supply soft water 24/7. The regeneration is set based on best mathematical guestimate with gallonage figured in as a reserve of water usage so (hopefully) you don't run out of soft water if calculated water usage is exceeded. Is not quite as efficent in its water use in regenration. It requires AC power to operate. The only thing the Kinetico and Culligan designs share is that they are both ion exchange softeners. How they each execute the management of the ion exchange is different. At a $95 dollar difference I'd have the Kinetico without question. After owning this system for more than 2 years, we are very happy with it. We are having to replace the pre-filter approx every month or so (due to heavy silt clay) but all we have to do is order them from our dealer and they are shipped to us. After talking to others who have a different system they are impressed about never running out of softened water and using no electricity. So much so that 1 is seriously considering getting a Kinetico when they build their new house. For that close in cost, no electric bill addition and no monthly service charge. Kinetico will end up saving you much more money. Hi all, I'm a newbie in this forum. I installed a new Kinetco 2060 in our new house after reading this thread last Christmas. I never have had a problem with it. I would like to thank everybody here for their input. Thank you all lilbosley, I hope you have decades of trouble-free service. But if you do, let us know and maybe you can get some advice to help. What were your water test results, btw? Andy Christensen, CWS-II All, I have the following water characteristics and need to find a conditioning solution. The question lies in buying a combined system that may go through calcite quicker than if the neutralizer and softener were seperate but then that leads to two timer mechanisms etc. I came across your Kinetico forum here and wonder if they have a solution for us in combined unit.... Hardness - 4 PH - 6.34 Alkalinity - 1.75 TDS - 112 Iron - 0 Turbidity - 1.5 Culligen is offering a $1799 installed neutralizer only solution. Local plumber is offering a $2150 Master NS-30T combined one unit softner and neutralizer solution. I have recently read this string about Kinetico and have them scheduled to stop by at 8:00am tomorrow to determine what they can do for us in regards to neutralizing and softening our water. Any knowledge out there that can help us make an informed decision would be greatly appreciated. spsilva Check out warranties, certification (nsf.org, wqa.org) and data on units. Ask lots of questions and observe testing closely,. Where are you located with those water conditions? East coast? Andy Christensen, CWS-II AndyC, We are located in very NE tip of Maryland. Kinetico offered us a $2800 neutralizer only solution. I understand the difference between the two (at least from the sellers point of Kinetico) who shows a picture of all the replaced older masters in back of their shop...very convincing sales ploy. What it comes down to is this. If Masters combined solution NS-30t has proven successful with limited downtime over ten years then it is a simple yes mathmatically to get the neutralizer + softner installed for $2150 vs. $2800 for neutralizer only. If Master and other electronic timers, distributers, backwashing units are consistent in breaking down between 5-10 years then spending the extra money on the Kinetico may make sense. If they do break down at that rate, where might I get a Kinetico to install or is the $2800 for neutralizer installed only available to dealers. Look forward to your reply. spsilva spsilva Let me know what your water conditions are. Depending on the results, you may have other options--even with Kinetico--that may prove worthwhile to investigate. As far as locating another Kinetico....I just bought one (Quad softener/filter) on eBay for $76! So there might be some out there. Get those results back to me. Was the local dealer Mermaid II? What city do you live in? I used to live in Glen Burnie. Best to you. Andy Christensen, CWS-II Here are my water results from Kinetico. Hardness - 4 PH - 6.34 Alkalinity - 1.75 TDS - 112 Iron - 0 Turbidity - 1.5 The $2800 price tag for Nuetralizer only from Kinetico is too high for me especially since my Hardness may go higher than 4 and I will then need to spend another $2800 for a softner per Kinetico. The $2150 for the Master NS-30T is looking better and better. Ideas? Oh, and it was Mermaid that came out to sell Kinetico. I leave in Glenn Farms neighborhood in the very NE part of Maryland. spsilva The system that has been recommended (Master NS-30T) is considered a salt-hog. It has a 30,000 grain capacity and uses 15 lb per regeneration. That leaves you with only a 2000 grains per pound of salt. Very poor efficiency. The timer valve is a very basic, and old technology that doesn't consider water use. You will either get untreated water to your home or use enormous amounts of salt. It is cheap for a reason. The makers are counting on you to look at price and not value. Going cheap can be very costly. Andy Christensen, CWS-II We just had a Kinetico model 4040 put in. We live in San Antonio, TX which is apparently notorious for it's hard water ( just moved here in early June). My wife had a hard time (no pun intended) in paying $3500 (tax install included) for the system. The reason I went w/Kinetico is my dad has had one for 15 years and has had to do nothing but add salt to it. He told me I'd pay more, and I did, but it would be worth it since there are no circuits to burn out, no electric costs. The plumber who installed it said, if you decide to install the drinking water component, I'll see you later, otherwise, I'm sure I won't be back. I'll keep you posted. The 4040s OD model is an excellent unit with very high efficiency. The carbon works effectively to treat chlorinated city water and the fine mesh resins will soften your water to a very high grain-per-pound of salt regeneration. Make sure you have a prefilter installed with this machine. For city water a 10- to 20-micron filter will work very well. I, too, recommend an RO. The new K5 by Kinetico is a remarkable drinking water system that is flexible to meet your specific water conditions. It is NSF certified to remove more contaminants than any other RO on the market. There are numerous other features that sets it apart from other residential ROs out there…at any price. Andy Christensen, CWS-II This is the 4040s OD. I know you will have a long and reliable service from this powerful little unit. Have you considered a drinking water device? Andy Christensen, CWS-II Hello all, Don't mean to hijack this thread but it seems it has turned into a kinetico QA thread. Slap me if you want me to start a new one. Purchased a used Kinetico 51 that looks similar to the unit in the picture except it has dual tanks ie there is no divide. The instructions as noted here are worthless. Able to assemble the tanks quite easily. The two lines coming out of the head confuse me. Assume that one goes to the drain and one to the tank. There are no markings differentiating them. Are the interchangeable? Also is there a quick and dirty faq that will run me through the initial startup and basic maintenance. Thanks. KP You might want to start a new thread. This one is quite old. As for your Kinetico, the bigger elbow is for the drain. It will need a 1/2 tubing. The smaller elbow is the brine line. It uses a 3/8 tubing Thanks biermech for the quick reply, information and advice. I will start a new thread. Our Model 60 Kinetico softener regenerates but does not use brine. Called Raab Water from Grabill, IN and a serviceman came out. The serviceman was to come between 1:00 3:00 pm, however he did not arrive until 4:30 pm. It was obvious that it was close to his quitting time for the day. He looked at our unit and took the head control off. Said it was too old to fix and threw the parts down into the brine tank. He asked if we would like to have a salesman come and talk to us about some specials that they had going on. He didn't know what the specials were. Gave us a bill for $74 and left. The salesman came and agreed that our unit was too old to fix. He had a special ending the end of the month and the price was $500 off so the new unit like ours would cost us $2995. We asked about rebuilding our unit and the salesman couldn't tell us if it could be done. But, he had a rebuilt unit that would cost $1995. Now we have a softener that is not put back together and would like to consult another Kinetico Dealer in the area as we think that Raab is not telling us the truth. If they can sell a rebuilt unit, why can't our unit be rebuilt? What would cause a softener to regenerate and not use brine? Plugged injector is one reason that a system will not draw brine, might also be some thing in the valve body is broke and not setting the unit up for the brine draw. If there is lots of water in the brine tank is that the line to the brine tank is cracked and pulling air and not the brine. Most likely you could get a different twin control say a 9100 and a new brine float assembly .. Andy, I'm looking into the system as well the 4040s OD and K5 but wondering if the Carbon on the 4040s OD needs to be replace it every certain time and how much cost ? Thanks Originally Posted by LuisL Andy, I'm looking into the system as well the 4040s OD and K5 but wondering if the Carbon on the 4040s OD needs to be replace it every certain time and how much cost ? Thanks One way to determine whether carbon needs to ne replaced is simply test for chlorine leaking through. Some companies 'recommend' periodic rebedding but often it is more often than really needed. The water volume, concentration of chloine in the water and age can play big roles in service life of any carbon application. Cost is determined by the local dealer. I would rather go with a 2040 and separate carbon tank which holds more in volume and easier to replace, even by the owner in may instances. First thing tomorrow morning, we are supposed to have our Kinetico system installed. I am worried I am paying too much. I haven't yet signed the contract but they will be here at 8AM so I need to know if I should hold out and try for a better price. I don't know my water test results but my water is VERY HARD and I have had a softener for 10 years that I don't think has every worked or it just couldn't keep up. I have staining everywhere! I will be getting a 2080F Twin Tank Iron Filter + 2060S Twin Tank Water conditioner. The price is is $3670. Am I paying too much? Please respond quickly! Thank you What was the water test? Grains of hardness and Iron? Very hard only hints that it might be around 8grains. Why the twin tank iron? What part of the country are you in? Actually, those together is a way lot lower than what most dealers charge. How is it that you are having it installed without a contract or signed work order? First of all, why the 2080F? That does nothing for the hardness? I am wondering why you don't have the water test results; were they not done for you? Kinetico's 2080 is usually a greensand filter to deal with iron or sulfur. Do you have either of those two problems? Most dealers have done away with the 2080version as part of their equipment line up because there are alternative means. The 2080F requires higher rates of backwashing. Without your water test results, it is hard to clearly determine what is best for your water treatment. Andy Christensen Thank you for the quick reply. I live in Essex County, MA and have a well. We bought our house 10 yrs ago with a water softening system that had recently been installed. The water was staining and did have sulfur. We had the engineer who sold and installed the system work on the system and he did seem to mitigate most of the sulfur (except for occasionally in the fall and spring when the cultures are active), however the staining and hard water has been constant. We had an RO system installed and I am happy with our drinking water. We are going with the 2 Systems because it seems reasonable to me since our water has never been right and I am SICK of it. I was also told by the dealer that besides the occasional sulfur, this should help with the high iron and reduce the amount of salt we use which ultimately gets into our septic system. Also, the Culligan dealer had quoted two tanks for $3600 so it sounded right. Although, the Kinetico dealer did try to get us to replace our RO system which does not need replacing so he seems more like a used car salesman than I would like. We were told we will be getting a new display model for this price with all the usual warranties. The original price was $3900 but we would be paying sales tax. I live close to the NH border where there isn't sales tax and they have a Kinetico dealer in NH. I asked why he wasn't sent and that I had no interest in paying sales tax so he deducted the sales tax from the price. The dealer came over during a bad storm and was in a rush to leave. He didn't leave us with the contract, only an installation date of 2/14. We received the contract in the mail on 2/10. We are supposed to sign the paperwork and give it to someone tomorrow when they are here for intall so I still have a few hours if I should cancel and do more homework. Thanks again! Still you have nothing in the way of that the Iron level is.. ie 3ppm? 8ppm? Hardness in grains is ? 6? 8? 12? H2S can change with the time of year, I know that it does here. How many people and the number of bathrooms in the house? The system that is there might not be cleaning enough or in other words under sized for iron/hardness and number of people in the home. If the stains are there and not there then the current system may need to be cleaning more.. or up sized... if it never does then that is another story. H2S might be treated with carbon or KDF if you have the flow rate for the back washing on the KDF. There is a media that might work if the ph is over 7 along with a system that could do... but again no information on water test..... so saying yes or no ...... not going to do that. I agree that without accurate readings, it is hard to determine what is needed and what would be useless. There are a number of factors when considering using more than one twin tank system. They will backwash at different times---usually. But occasionally, they will go at the same time. This can cause an issue if the flow rate is not adequate. The 2080 requires 6 gpm and the 2060, 2 gpm. Kinetico suggests ( I strongly for) a control valve that fits between the units that prevents them going at the same time. One will wait till the other is finished. This way it will have adequate flow rate. I shy away from greensand filter regardless who makes them. There are other excellent sulfur systems---again numbers would help. Alpsdvan, I would never use KDF as a POE sulfur reducer, even with adequate backwashing rate, which is quite high. I havce used it in small cartridges placed before ROs and when it is exhuasted, replace it. I have worked a lot with KDG and it has some excellent qualities but on a POE system, I would never recommend it. I have found it has a short life and it very expensive--and sometimes impossible--to replace. Andy Christensen I have used it in chlorine removal and h2s removal and maybe every 4 years taking some acid to clean and it is good, but flow is the key to long life. The chlorine system was two 1 cubic foot systems cleaning every other night and running 7k gallons per day of raw water, every 3 years we had to do a bath on the media ... but that was cheap and the benefit was great for the RO bottle plant that I was in charge of.
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